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To: tiernan@mad.scientist.com
Subject: TirNanOc, Issue #111
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Greetings!
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====================================================================
From: "Flehmen & Darna" <flehmen@netcom.ca>
To: "Tiernan" <tiernan@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:56:44
Subject: Re: TirNanOc, Issue #110
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:06:59 -0500, Tiernan wrote:
>{Administrative note:}
>I am in the process of moving this mailing list over to a majordomo server,
>the delay in setting that up being that the sysadmin is having some
>problems with thier majordomo server. When it does become available, I'll
>be sending out a note to everyone letting them know how to subscribe. I
>suspect that in the process of converting there may well be several of you
>who are "lost in the transition", as we've several subscribers who haven't
>been heard of since about week three the list was being sent out (Over two
>years ago now!). To try and minimize that, I will overlap for a few weeks,
>compiling digests of the list and sending them out manually to those who
>haven't subbed to the majordomo, and I will try to remove names from the
>manual list as I see them pop up on the majordomo. If, however, you get
>copies from both, drop me an email and remind me to move your name off the
>manual list. I will send out a notice to everyone still on the manual list
>when the last manual list is sent, if you get that notice and haven't
>subbed yet to the majordomo let me know.
Does this mean that the list will become like so many
other lists?
Send in a post and have a mass mailing a few times a day?
If so I really like that idea. I have found it very
hard to keep
track of a thread when it isn't replied to for a couple of weeks. It will
also make it alot easier to read through, if each portion is smaller.
Ki'taye
---
/\__/\________
( <><> ) \*********\
\\ \ / // /********\_>
0 \ /-----\ /
o o
Ki'taye
========================================================
Yep, that's exactly what it means :)...T
========================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:52:58 -0500
To: Tiernan <tiernan@mad.scientist.com>
From: sade wolfkitten <wufkitn@en.com>
Subject: Re: TirNanOc, Issue #110
<snip snip snip>
> That was very condensed. Did everyone follow me?
Basically what I'm
>saying is not only do I agree with Amanjaku totally, but I think they may
>have accidentally stumbled upon the answer we have all been looking for.
>We are here, because being here forces us to interrelate in ways that would
>be impossible on our native worlds.
interesting.. not sure if i cd go 100% w/this explanation, but it bears soum
considering. and yes, i followed you fine :}
other stuff..
>I am Otherkin, of the wolf persuasion. I also have Fae in me as well. But
>I am living in the society (as I remember it) of the Wolf-kin. But I am
>having a problem in that my mate wishes to have two Alphas. This would be
>herself, another male as Alpha, and myself as Alpha.
you are male also?
>If he were Awake, I don't think that we'd have problems. But he does not
>know the society, and is not really that willing to learn. And he is doing
>a good job of acting, enough so that he is fooling her. Can a two Alpha
>situation work? Has it ever worked? Can I give her what she hopes for, or
>is this simply doomed from the start, as it appears to be?
umm, my personal take is, Danger Will Robinson.
1) if u are Awake, and she is Awake, but he is not, thats gonna get sticky.
2) 2 Alphas .. ok, i tend to threes in relationships, tho i've yet to
have a long term lasting triad. so take my advice w/a small siberian
saltmine ;)
as i understand it, triads can either be a closed triangle - in which each
member
is lvoers w/thee other two - or a "V", in which one (in this case, your
female)
serves as fulcrum.
now tha thing about tri relationships is that they're 9 times tha work :}
(it increases geometrically - alone you're one, get a partner its 4..) and
if its a V, that all _really_ falls on tha middle person. it is up to them to
keep both partners happy, to make sure both are treated equally. and as
anyone in a relationship w/one can tell you, just dealing w/*one* takes so
much.. to make one relationship really Work is a difficult, amazing thing.
so you have to really consider whether tha fulcrum person is up to
handling double that load.
>The friction is getting unbearable for me, which I think is his intent.
this is warning sign #3. *you* dont sound very happy w/this situation.
and if thats tha case, like it or not, it's not gonna work out. i am being
honest here.. for a triad to work, all 3 partners must be comfortable and
happy with thee arrangement.
also, if i may make assumptions based on your words.. if this is his intent,
is he playing 'let's cut this filly outta tha herd'? thats a well-known game..
i've been caught in it myself (and a female can just as easily try to cut
out a male). in which a threesome is just cover for breaking up a couple.
i think you need to take a long look at your relationship with her.. imo
and all that natch <g> but look at what is she hoping to accomplish..
even if you were not Wolf-kin, its generally a rule that 2 males do not
get along as well. if he was to be your lover too, and that was cool all
around it might work.. or at least if you two were damn good friends
who agreed to share a woman.
it sounds like she is attracted to him for at least tha short term. depending
on where u two stand, she might go off to Play w/him awhile.. she might
go off for good. but she _cannot_ make you accept a situation that you
are not comfortable with. even if you were to acquiesce, it wouldnt work
out in tha long run.
sorry to be long-winded on this.. there are various polyamoury thingies
out there, Church of All Worlds has done a lot ov work in this direxion.
i dont have any URLs to hand tho a search on 'polyamoury' should
point you somehwere.
>I'm going to sign this as 'Olde Wulv'.
grrrrowwff!
>^..^<
shade and sweet water to you
sade
-{-<@ go ask thee angelz <-!-> 4 invasion ov their Hollow Hills
why they're callin 2 thee... -*- that music hold & Oberon fill
quicklime gurl/Stoner Witch <-!-> iz surely recommended not..
-<-{-<@ wufkitn@en.com @>-}->- -{-<@ 4 fear ov Death in fear ov Rot
=========================================================
X-Sender: tmills@a.psc.edu
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:45:51 -0500
To: tiernan@mad.scientist.com
From: tmills@psc.edu (Tuck)
Subject: Re: FWD: TirNanOc, Issue #110
H'lo all --
feeling chatty and picking through a couple of bits and pieces......
>From: "greyhawk" <greyhawk@crisscross.com>
>We are here, because being here forces us to interrelate in ways that would
>be impossible on our native worlds.
....Thanks, greyhawk. Now I can't get the Mos Eisley cantina music out of
my head. :}
-Still, there's something compelling about this line of reasoning. The
more so because of the potential effects it could have on the 'gone-native'
factor and what may happen when the Other on this rock *do* get their
chance to Go Home [TM].
-Will they, in their heart of hearts, really be able to? -Could it be
that, for many -- not all, but many -- this rock has become as Home as
Home's gonna get?
*shrug* just a little ill-conceived heresy to go with your coffee.....
>From: Olde Wulv
>
>I am Otherkin, of the wolf persuasion. I also have Fae in me as well. But
>I am living in the society (as I remember it) of the Wolf-kin. But I am
>having a problem in that my mate wishes to have two Alphas. This would be
>herself, another male as Alpha, and myself as Alpha.
>
>*snip*
oww. umm, I hate to be a doomsayer, but everything in me is screaming 'Bad
Idea' in huge neon letters. -Polyamourous relationships are tricky
business any which way they're done; and for a setup consisting of two
Alpha males and one female? (any species, not just Wolf-kin) .....I won't
say it's unheard-of, but it is on the unlikely side of rare. That there
is already friction between you and the other Alpha, and that he is not
really Awake, only heighten my doubts about this working.
still: I could be wrong. I often am.
The true love you bear your mate shines through in your post, BTW. And
that has to count for something.
Deep Peace....
Tuck
'I am not sure how clouds get formed. But the clouds know how to do it,
and that is the important thing.' -Kids on Science-
=========================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:03:36 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: sidhe@ntr.net
To: Tiernan <tiernan@mad.scientist.com>
From: sidhe@ntr.net (Denise Jones)
Subject: For TirNanOc #111
With twinkling eyes did Greyhawk scribe:
[quoting me, Amanjaku]
>> BTW, just a random thought here...but has anyone ever thought
>> about how much advantage there is to using the human realm as
>> a place for diverse Otherkin to meet? Humans all have the same
>> basic form, so when everyone is forced to wear a human form,
>> you don't get people with big claws,fangs or sheer mass
>> trying to use them to intimidate other Otherkin. Just a thought...
>One of the issues that pops up in this list over and over again is: "Why
>are the Otherkin here, in this place, at this time? Why are we trapped on
>a world where we are outcasts, unloved, unwanted, and labelled as insane?"
To be perfectly honest, I don't think there is any one, specific reason why
we're all here right now. It is becoming more and more apparant that there
is a great variety of Otherkin here from a great variety of worlds. It
stands to reason that there will also be a great variety of reasons for all
those Otherkin to be here. Some of us have personal reasons. For my own
part, I am a wizard's apprentice who was entirely too curious about humans,
and was allowed to visit this realm simply because I could. You might say
I'm on an extended field trip. :) There are a couple of other reasons, but
that is the main one.
> On my world, there has been almost constant warfare for
tens of thousands
>of years. Despite this, the people of my world regard themselves as both
>peaceful and peace-loving.
Interesting. I'd like to hear more about this sometime, if you wouldn't mind
sharing. :) It's information like this that I'd like to put on my 'FAQ'
pages. The more information we can pool about the various realms, the better
our chances of understanding ourselves and each other.
>We are here, because being here forces us to interrelate in ways that would
>be impossible on our native worlds.
I honestly don't know if this is the answer or not. It could be *one* of the
answers. Or it might just be a side effect of whatever other reasons are
drawing us here. All I do know is that it is a great chance for us all to
learn about each other, if we choose to take it. :)
However, I am reasonably certain that there are other causes for Otherkin
being here. There are preparations underway in my home realm for a fairly
massive migration into this world, because they are worried about what sort
of ripple effects the upcoming Changes in this world are going to have on
other, nearby worlds. (One of the general consensuses [consensii?] is that
the more technologically based worlds are, to put it bluntly, screwed. I
don't think they're really equipped to handle the magickal surges we're
kindof expecting.) The younger ones, especially, are all keen on going to
visit the human realms and seeing the wonders of the Cities of Man. *wry
grin* The older ones see it as their final Great Work. I wish I knew more
about what was going on. :\
Perhaps one of the keys to understanding our differences and similarites
lies in figuring out all the various reasons why we're here. Who's here out
of curiosity? Who's here to take care of 'karma'? Who's here because they
were trapped in this world long ago? The list could go on and on...
In flaming runes did Sileniel scribe:
>I would echo Chiller's wish for a gentler, more accepting frame of mind.
>I've seen people jump to conclusions and get all bent out of shape over
>what are to me really small things. A little more benefit of the doubt
>could go a long way. I hope that this *is* just a symptom of an emerging
>community. I would hate to see the backbiting and witchwars of the pagan
>community become the norm in the Otherkin community as well.
I completely agree. Folks, I think Benjamin Franklin said it best at the
Constitutional Convention...
"Gentlemen, if we don't hang together, we shall most assuredly hang
separately."
If we cannot at least agree to sometimes disagree, then we are doomed to
fail at anything we try to do together.
>Amanjanku, I think the glossary idea is awesome :) It's an idea whose time
>has definitely come.
Thank you. :)
>I'm not sure I agree with the definition of "Elf".
Well, that's why I put this up for discussion rather than just posting it
first and asking later. :) Let's talk!
(Apologies in advance for being exclusive to non-elves, to whom the
following doesn't apply. I don't mean to exclude you, it's just that we need
to get this properly hashed out.)
>"Elf
>A term describing a tall, fair, magickally adept race of people."
>Not all of us are tall and fair, I'm not sure what defines Elf, really,
>except that people know when they are one.
Ok, you've got a point. I was simply using the 'classical celtic' definition
as a starting point. So what, then, defines an 'elf'? Elves obviously exist
across many different realms, so what common quality marks us all as
belonging to the same People? And, given that there are so many varieties of
the People, each with their own different name for themselves, what term can
we use for the People as a collective whole that will not offend or exclude
anyone? (I use 'The People' here, simply because that is generally what all
such terms translate into.) I hesitate to use the word 'elf' only because it
has become so tainted with human expectations and judgements. The human
concept of 'elf' barely describes us anymore. Even the fantasy/ D&D variety
of elf seems to me to be little more than a kind of human with pointy ears.
The term 'sidhe' seems to carry more resemblence to what I remember and to
not carry the connotiations of cute, naked little pixies on flowers - but it
also seems to be specific to one kind of The People. What to do?
>" 'Elves' are sometimes specifically thought of as being native to
>Aelfheim, but the term
>is sometimes used interchangeably with the term 'sidhe' [who are also
called Elves by mythology]."
This is one of the prime problems we're dealing with. We must deal with
human words, preconceptions, and muddled definitions - especially if we want
to educate those humans who are willing to listen. I think this is an
important thing to do.
>I would rather this read that Elves can come from a number of places (and
>listing all the ones we know of might be helpful), and that they have been
>mistaken? for the sidhe.
How are your people different from Sidhe, besides being from another realm?
This suggestion sounds like a good one - perhaps the best system we can use
would be something like the way there are 'Native Americans', and then there
are 'Cherokee', 'Navaho', 'Blackfoot', 'Chippawa', and so on and so forth.
>FYI, my own people now have a name for ourselves, we are the Elenari. Since
>we aren't really from the Aelfheim of Norse mythology, this was only a
>nickname for our world, calling ourselves Elenari rather than "Aelfheimers"
>will probably avoid a lot of confusion.
>
>As such, the description:
>"Another sidhe home realm. Memories of Aelfheim seem to include some
>mountainous territories, as well as a climate that permits snow."
>This is kind of simplistic and misleading, no offense. Aelfheim is, as I
>said, a nickname we used for our home realm, it is *not* the real name of
>the home realm. I'm out of time today, but I'll send you a brief descripion
>of it in private e-mail.
No offence taken. It *is* rather simplistic, just because my own memories do
not point there, and so all I could do was glean what others had written.
I'd be very glad of any information you'd be willing to share about this
realm - both what it *is*, and what it is *not*. :)
>
>Perhaps we could also add on this "FAQ" page (is it going to be a page?)
>links to the pages that are about our languages. The two I know of are on
>Rialian's page and one on Lanthinel's page.
It's not just a single FAQ page - it's as many pages as necessary, with
hopefully more to come. I'd like to create an online 'library' of Otherkin
information, if that's possible. With time and the help of other people, I'd
like to see this 'library' grow a lot bigger. :)
And yes, there are already links on it to Rialian's and Lanthinel's pages -
and yours, too! ^.^ Say, does anyone know if Tal Leon has a page again? A
lot of the things he said a while back made a lot of sense to me, and if he
has anything like them posted on the web, I'd sure like to know about it!
Also, if anyone else has anything to say on any of this or any information
on other realms they'd care to share, *please* either post to this list or
e-mail me privately! I'm willing to do the work of gathering the information
in one spot, but without other people's input, all I'd be posting is my own
memories - a thing of little use to the collective Otherkin community.
One further thing - is there anyone on this list using the name Aendril
LacLear, or something similar? I was informed to look for someone of that
name on my lists, and this was the first thing that sprang to mind. If
you're out there Aendril, please e-mail me. :)
And now, since this post is already too long, I bow and leave the floor for
the next speaker. :)
In your service,
Amanjaku
sidhe@ntr.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SYSTEM UPGRADE - INSTALLATION OF PLUG-IN FAERIE v2.0 SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED.
REBOOT REALITY Y/N?
=========================================================
Now THAT is a good sig... T
=========================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:46:37 -0600
To: Tiernan <tiernan@mad.scientist.com>
From: Sileniel <sileniel@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TirNanOc, Issue #110
Greyhawk, I like your observation that we may be all here so that we can
meet on "neutral ground". The next question for me is: Why? I suppose
education and development are always good reasons, but are there any others?
Char had asked how one can tell if someone you meet is someone you've met
in a past life. Based on your post, I would guess that you are wondering
whether your friend from the last year of High School is someone you knew
in a past life. On a side note, I don't think just meeting someone in a
past life is enough (on average) to create a strong enough connection that
it would carry over from life to life.
For me, the way I know if I've known someone in a life other than this one
is whether I have any reactions to that person that cannot be explained by
events in this life. For instace, how I react to them when I first meet
them can be a clue. There have been a few people that I instantly "knew"
almost right away, I knew what they were like, whether I could trust them
or no, and had feelings which seemed to be more developed than they should
be for the little amount of time that I knew them. Like the one guy I
instantly hated when I first met him a few years ago, who turned out to be
a lying thief; Or the instant friendship I've had with who I've discovered
to be family of Olde.
I hope this helps. Only you, in your heart, know whether this person you
speak of is truly someone you have known before. I would also suggest that
if you have known hir, past karma can play into the present. Old wounds may
still need healing, old patterns repeat, etc.
>From: Olde Wulv
Olde Wulv had asked whether a two Alpha situation could work. In the
situation you describe, however, it seems that the main issue behind this
is that that the other male Alpha involved is unwilling to learn, and from
my perspective, sounds manipulative. He sounds like he is presenting a
false face, because you say he is pretending to know the Wolfen society
even though he does not want to learn it.
My take on this is that the arrangement cannot work if there is indeed
manipulation and mistrust. Trust and communication are the key to any
relationship working out.
Des'tai,
Sileniel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"'Tis better to light a candle than curse the darkness"
(author unknown)
"The moment one definitely commits oneself,
then providence moves too." - Goethe
---------------------------------------------------------------------
===================================================
From: AlcestisTA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:50:20 EST
To: tiernan@mad.scientist.com
Subject: Re: TirNanOc, Issue #110
Hello all, and cead mile failte! I just recently joined this list, and am
going against my natural lurker's instinct to post a little introduction. My
name in the human world is Marianne Dee, but my Other friends call me Lilith,
or Elle. I'm 23, a member of the Seelie court, and have the biggest mouth
(figuratively) of anyone I know. (My mouth is also large in the literal sense,
though not disproportionately so... just enough so that the kids in school
called me "Gelfling" and, occasionally, "Geekling," causing me to cry.) In
case you can't tell, I do go on about pretty much everything that pops into my
head (that's safe to reveal, that is), so you may have to sift through my
posts and eliminate the constant ramblings and afterthoughts to make any sense
out of them.
At any rate, in the last issue (#110), Geoff or Helen wrote:
>===Hello all! I thought I would put out an idea for a possible workshop for
>the gathering, and see what people though. One of the questions that comes
>about for awakening sorts is how do relationships work afterward. Some
>types of fae (Such as myself, an elf) tend to go polyamorous, while others
>tend towards monogamy..(A dragon or two I have talked to has said that is
>their way). This can, understandably, cause problems and confusion,
>especially if you are in a different sort of relationship at the time when
>you awaken. I am trying to get an idea of what sort of tendencies are out
>there...I do have some theories on why there might be differences, but I do
>want to get a better idea of what others think.>>
I am in a rather... er, UNIQUE situation concerning this facet of my life. I
am actually Bonded to a fellow Seelie by the name of Angelo Greyhold. In case
this is in some way unique to the circles I travel in, I'll explain: This man
and I share an actual physical and mental dependency on one another. The
easiest way of explaining this - the way our shaman did to us, when we found
out, is that for all practical purposes, we are one being in two bodies. I
have been Angelo's wife from the first second of my existence, on all planes.
I really don't have any choice (or any urge) towards anything BUT monogamy. I
can't even imagine being with someone else... it just wouldn't make any SENSE.
It would be like making love to a sheep. (Not to cast aspersions any of you
sheep-lovers out there.)
This is the first time the two of us have been assigned to different planes...
normally, we're both either in the Dreamtime or in the Physical, with no
separations. But, apparently, in some time which is still lost to my memory, I
volunteered to take a Watch out here. It goes back and forth from being
heavenly... (me sending him sensations of REM, PJ Harvey, Tori Amos and The
Beatles, not to mention the occasional bagel, and him sending me sensations of
some really good Elfin wine) to hellish... ("Let's see, we could celebrate
Bealtaine, OR I could stay up until two in my morning getting Human paperwork
done. You don't mind if I don't actually stay employed in the Physical, do
you?")
So, there's one rather unusual perspective which, though I doubt you'll find
it echoed in any other postings, may help you nevertheless. Or it won't. Who
can really tell?
Faerie Love (and Human Ice
Cream),
LILITH.
==========================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:09:36 -0800
To: Tiernan <tiernan@mad.scientist.com>
From: polsons@goldrush.com (Willow Polson)
Subject: Re: TirNanOc, Issue #100
><Silver Elves also said:>
>> ...to reincarnate over and over again until we Master this realm
>> creating bodies that are indeed Immortal...thus Elfin.
>
> I have long wondered if maybe the human bodies we inhabit now
>are an evolutionary step between apes and elves. It seems to me
>entirely possible that a few more global catclysms and cycles of
>civilization could easily make the difference between the efficient,
>healthy, magical body I remember inhabiting, and this frail, decaying,
>easily sickened lump of protein I currently inhabit.
While I know that issue #100 was MONTHS ago, I'm only just now reading it.
It's a long story. (shrug)
I don't think it's a true "evolution" as Darwin would have it, but there
has long been speculation that apes were hybrid/given intelligence/etc. by
beings other than what evolved naturally from the Earth. (Insert the usual
alien/Tuatha de Danaan controversy here.)
Anyway, I think things are further along than the "frail, decaying, easily
sickened lump of protein". Watching the winter olympics as I have been, I
know that I can never dream of achieving the physical feats of 99.9% of
those athletes... yet they are probably no more "evolved" than I am. Yes, I
got the Plague (influenza from hell) that many did this winter, but I don't
consider myself "easily sickened"... And there is the strong influence of
the spirit, not the body, that allows us as well as those in the olympics
to do what to many seems and is impossible.
And how are Craig, Cian, and I faring these days? It snowed today at our
new home on the mountaintop in the Sierras. We can see the northern high
country of Yosemite - the Clark Range - and when the sun shines on that
whiteness of snow where it only melts in late summer, you can remember
other snows of purist white from other times, other planes. The stars shine
with renewed light since they don't compete with the millions of man-made
stars that line the streets of our cities. You can see the Milky Way, named
for the stream of milk that shoots across the heavens from the breast of
the Mother. The moon shines anew, and we bask in her glory as all peoples
used to before she was dimmed through competition and pollution. Frogs,
crickets, bobcats, and coyotes sing us to sleep. We have filed for
bankruptcy... we decided to play the Death card, and it feels good to be
reborn. We have nothing, yet we have everything. We sleep in a tent and
experience the world again. We heat our house with fires instead of central
heating, and our feet have traded concrete for stones and plants. My spirit
is healing. It is free once again.
Beannacht.
***************
Willow Polson
***************
===================================================
To: "tiernan@mad.scientist.com" <tiernan@mad.scientist.com>
Subject: Intro for TirNanOc
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 20:06:41 -0500
From: Tigris <tigris@unforgettable.com>
Hi! I guess I will start by introducing myself....
My name's Tigris. I've been subscribing/lurking for quite a few issues now,
and I'm still reading and listening to everyone... but so far it all sounds
interesting.
I don't know what all I can say about myself. I'm not sure what sort of Fae
or Otherkin I am, outside of being sure I'm not human. I've only been
really coming to this realization over the past couple years, recently I've
felt more strongly the urge to get in contact with others who are, like me,
not human. I found this list via Avatar Search, and found a few other lists
from this web page. Prior to getting email I had a few friends who I knew
were not human like me, but I had no idea there were so many other people
who also felt this way. It's a relief to know this is not just the result
of doing a few too many drugs in college.
I'm curious about something, everyone seems to be so aware of what they are,
where they are from. Is it normal to be so unsure of oneself, as I am? I
would appreciate any feedback on this.
Tigris
--
<insert witty sig here>
=====================================================================
Until Next Time
Blessings Upon Your Ways
Tiernan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ .|.
TirNanOc - An Email List in Digest Form - * -
Focused on Elven/Otherkindred Magick `|\ O/)
And the Humankin who Believe ~X>}
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